On a more serious note, we cover a wide range of topics today: a general catch-up on where we both are, career-wise, what prompted us to record again, and how life after debut is going. (Spoiler: it's complicated and stressful.)

There's been a move in the industry to talk about the problem of career longevity, which is definitely a favorite subject here, and now we're weighing in, almost 3 years exactly after our 2022 debuts. Though we have no guest other than Drake Scottford, we did collect some responses in an informal questionnaire, and share a few of those answers.

Other things we discuss: the magic sales number, and an infamous AMA with a big 5 marketing person, and the absolute joy of reading commercial fiction.

Link to the Reddit AMA with Marketer: https://www.reddit.com/r/PubTips/comments/1nw96ti/ama_big_five_marketer_umssalt/

Link to The Magic Number, by Todd Satterson:

https://bardpress.com/the-magic-number/

Tracks of My Tears (article featuring David Headley):

https://www.thebookseller.com/features/tracks-of-my-tears-where-does-the-fault-lie-when-books-fail-to-hit

Although this has a bit longer run-time than normal, we hope you find this episode as intriguing, entertaining, and profoundly uplifting as we did. LOVE IS REAL, buckaroos!

Topics covered:

• Autism and backstory
• Journey into publication
• The origins of his surrealist art
• Sad Puppies / Rabid Puppies
• Chuck's unique view on the concept of "branding"
• Integrating art with marketing
• The role authors can play in self expression
• The relationship between who authors are and what they write
• When authors we love let us down
• Chuck suggests that publishing is the kindest of all the artistic industries
• Chuck's advice for approaching deals
• We talk about Chuck's deal progression
• Selling books through events, and rethinking them

And finally, they each get to give the pettiest hill they'd die on. Hint: Sunyi's hill starts with "J" and ends in "owling".

Link to the Guardian article that Sunyi talks about in her Petty Hill at the end: https://www.theguardian.com/books/1997/jul/08/booksforchildrenandteenagers.danglaister

Award-winning author and professor, Suyi Davies Okungbowa, discusses how he makes the writing life work for him, by balancing his original fiction and his prolific IP work against his academic career.

Among many other topics, he outlines the crucial role of a personal assistant (especially how they can supplement publisher marketing), his criteria for accepting or rejecting IP projects, his very unique approach to social media, and how he sets certain boundaries with publishers.

Other topics: Sunyi comes out in defense of writing to market, Nisha stresses the importance of still writing what you love (even when writing to market), and how they intersect. There are different types of readers, and different types of writers, and they have different goals with regard to books. We also discuss the amount of money to be made in this particular subgenre, why Nisha chose to go trad/hybrid after seeing indie success; and the longevity of romantasy overall.

With 18 years of experience in the industry, Ed brings a shrewd but frank perspective on a variety of important topics in trad publishing--along with some thoughts on American football, and the shininess of Scott's teeth. Oh, and we think you'll love his "petty hill" segment at the end!

Topics covered:

• Book advance sizes, and what they mean for your career
• Leverage, and managing publishing relationships
• Whether publishers really can "stall" an author's career
• Crucial contract clauses for the modern author
• The importance of literary agent relationships
• Editors getting insider book deals
• Football comparisons
• Bookscan inaccuracy
• And more!

Topics include: reviving a flagging career, romantasy, trends and pitches, a nuanced discussion on the relevance of platform, and Scott attempting to guess Kristina's accent. Kristina also outlines some of the help she provides her authors, and graciously gave us a number of links to use in the show notes (seen below)

Topics covered:

• Being a hybrid author
• How SPFBO works and can benefit indie authors
• Paying for publicity (via Black Crow) in the UK specifically
• Collaborative efforts with Orbit on marketing/publicity in the USA
• Book Tours (an assessment and reflection)
• Finding an angle for pubs to use
• Thinking about longterm goals
• LitRPGs and why they remain indie
• Theories about the goal of OrbitWorks (digital only imprints)
• Chatter about jujitsu and other nonsense

Wragg cheerfully dissects the past six years of his career, including advances, royalties (or negative royalties in this case), the reality of post-debut book deals, and the differences in production quality between tiers of books. Finally, he and Scott discuss the pressing question of how and why authors keep writing, despite it all. (Though this episode description may seem bleak, we promise it has a few laughs along the way.)

• 00:00 Introduction
• 01:00 Background and Experience in the Publishing Industry
• 04:11 The Role of Events in Book Marketing
• 07:05 The Challenges of Filling Book Events
• 09:00 The Value of Events for Debut Authors
• 10:26 The Influence of Class and Connections in Publishing
• 15:00 The Myth of the Slush Pile
• 18:39 The Need for Engaging and Fun Book Events
• 20:24 The Value of Indie Author Events
• 25:26 The Role of Marketing and Publicity for Authors
• 27:22 Working with Traditionally Published Authors
• 31:33 The Challenges of Hiring PR and Marketing Services
• 41:57 The Empowered Author and Building a Strong Author Platform

00:00 Introduction and Background

03:08 Interactions with Authors and the Design Process

07:03 The Design Brief and Constraints

09:02 Pay and Salaries in the Design Industry

12:04 The Impact of Thumbnails on Book Covers

32:31 The Role of AI in Writing and Design

34:00 Concerns and Fears about AI in the Creative Industry

35:06 Legal Ramifications of AI in Publishing

36:27 The Need for Accountability and Fair Compensation

37:21 Controversies and Criticisms of OpenAI

39:16 The Impact of AI on Artists and Creators

41:14 The Dark Side of AI and Social Media

44:34 The Use of AI in Social Media Platforms

46:18 The Potential Benefits and Limitations of AI

48:08 The Controversy of Cover Quotes on Book Jackets

53:43 The Frustration with Front Cover Quotes

• 00:00 Introduction and Podcast Origins
• 01:09 Mark Stay's Background and Bestseller Experiment
• 02:45 The Impact and Pressure of Bestseller Experiment
• 03:10 The Success and Community of Bestseller Experiment
• 04:05 Lessons Learned from Bestseller Experiment
• 05:17 Disillusionment and Quitting While Ahead
• 06:12 Finding the Right Tone for Bestseller Experiment
• 07:31 Defeatism in Traditional Publishing
• 08:12 The Empathy and Doom Scrolling of Creatives
• 09:25 The Challenges of Self-Publishing
• 10:34 The Importance of Loving the Process
• 11:49 Mark Stay's Journey from Bookseller to Author
• 13:35 The Experience of Traditional Publishing
• 15:49 The Unconventional Paths in Publishing
• 19:00 Self-Publishing the Bestseller Experiment Book
• 20:33 The Challenges of Selling a Genre-Bending Book
• 22:44 Takeaways for Authors to Give Their Books a Good Shot
• 28:29 The Impact of the Podcast on Scott Drakeford's Publishing Journey
• 32:42 The Reception and Impact of the Podcast
• 35:16 Challenges Faced by Publishers
• 37:06 Focus on Brand Authors
• 38:04 Neglecting Growing Authors
• 39:03 Ineffective Advertising Campaigns
• 40:00 The Mistake of Becoming Bigger
• 42:21 Digital Publishers and Genre Preferences
• 43:18 Preference for Tangible Books
• 44:09 The Importance of Book Covers
• 45:37 Amazon's Dominance and Publishers' Reliance
• 46:31 Amazon's Control and Negotiations
• 47:02 Amazon's Focus on Other Ventures
• 48:31 Visibility and Impact of Amazon on Authors
• 49:28 The Influence of Nielsen BookScan
• 53:41 Diversity in Publishing
• 55:05 The Future of Publishing and Concerns
• 56:02 American Cultural Imperialism
• 01:03:19 Smallest Hill to Die On: Americanization of British English
• 01:09:06 Plugs: Bestseller Experiment, Witches of Woodville

This week, we talk about the process of getting your books into stores, the nitty gritty of distribution in relation to small presses, indie authors, and hybrid folks like JT, how to make smart choices, the ways in which books can build towards success, and the (psychologically) damaging myth of the "instant best seller" launch.

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• the advantages of splitting rights versus selling world rights
• Thinking about strategies for selling the rights of your book
• self pub USA, trad pub UK
• The importance of ingram
• Why are book royalties so low in trad? What does higher royalties mean in the context of smaller presses
• Good presale numbers--how to calculate this as a debut (jeremy's 'vibe check' formula)
• Debuts not making or breaking you
• how online discussions skew our perception of success
• how to make good decisions
• Jeremy and Scott bicker (good-naturedly) over the definition of "tiers"
• Bookseller mentality re hype and sales
• Small, achievable goals - not totally powerless!
• NEW PODCAST SECTION: The Smallest Hill You're Willing To Die On

Rather than subject voters to hours of episodes, we've chosen to create a short(ish) compilation, spanning the whole of our show! Runtime is only 31 minutes, and we hope it will give you a sense of the kind of humor, content, and discussion that we cover on Pub Rodeo.

Transcripts + show notes are on our website, and on RSS.com.

Jim is a long-time author and anti-vanity press advocate who, along with many others, has dedicated years of his life to investigating predatory publishers and teaching new authors to protect themselves. Today, he joins us in this Special Episode to share his experiences and knowledge on the rise of these organisations and how they operate.

This episode differs from our usual because Jim is very much the focus, with Scott and Sunyi choosing to take a backseat. We hope that this episode will be illuminating and helpful to newer authors who are starting to find their feet in this murky industry. This is a topic which is close to our hearts, and on which we feel strongly about.

CONTENT WARNING: Animal hunting (elk) is discussed in detail, which may be upsetting to some listeners.

Other topics: we reflect on regrets and highlights across the past year, do a quick summary of where we are, why we've slowed down, and what's going on, AND our plans for Season 2 (there will be one!) and how it will be different from Season 1.

Finally, Scott introduces a new shiny thing we've been working on: the Author Data Project, an adult-fiction version of the YA research that Dr. Kerry Pray conducted and discussed in an earlier episode.

Links to the other 2 podcasts we mentioned and recommended:

• The Failing Writers Podcast, featuring Jon Rand, Tom Turner, and Dave Baird: https://www.failingwriterspodcast.com/
• Great fun, honest conversations, fantastic guests!
• Cover Meeting, with Steve Leard: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cover-meeting/id1706806306
• A side of the industry authors normally don't see!

We sit down with her today to ask hard-hitting questions: Why don't we just quit? Why keep doing it? Why not 'just' self publish? And finally, was it all worth it?

Nota bene: SPECIAL THANKS to Casmer Maliszewski for helping us clean up the audio on this episode! We experienced a lot of distortion and he kindly stepped in to help make it a more comfortable listen.

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SHOW NOTES:·

• Long career that begin with a slew of rejections, followed by getting picked up by publishers who either went bankrupt, folded, or refused to pay. Kameron now claws a fierce living on the midlist, with a hard-earned fanbased and a chest of publishing war stories / wisdom.·
• Sunyi reads a bit from Kameron Hurley’s essay, ON PERSISTENCE:· "I felt like I'd failed at everything. Life was a ruin. I found myself living in a spare bedroom at a friend's house, unemployed, deep in medical debt, staring at yet another novel three-quarters of the way finished. When I opened my laptop, the sticky note still stared back at me. Persistence, in all things, in writing, in life. I finished the book. I'd reached a point in my life where I didn't know how to do anything else but finish the fucking book."·
• The importance of being ‘easy to work with’ in the industry·
• But also the importance of knowing your worth and fighting for your career·
• Choosing walk away from bad deals, unsupportive agents or editors, and bad film options (yes you can do all of this!)·
• Why did Kameron choose to champion transparency on her blog? Because the skewed publishing perspective that many writers put forward made her feel like a failure.·
• Examples of midlist writers who broke out to find big success·
• The importance of pen names·
• The importance of giving away arcs·
• WHY DON’T YOU JUST SELF PUBLISH? The dreaded question that we swim through repeatedly in conversations.·
• Why do we keep doing it? Why should we persevere?· Defining personal success, and finding joy in the process.·
• Sunyi’s final question: WAS IT WORTH IT?

Bringing to bear years of varied experience, he walks us through the trenches and pitfalls of an industry that makes trad pub look like child's play--including the kind of working conditions you can expect, and the kind of money you might be able to earn.

Oh, and Scott gets to ask his burning question at the end: why do some big-budget tv franchises turn out so crappy?!

###

Full notes:·

• 30+ year career.
• Started out writing for comics, then moved to tie-in novels, then wrote for film and television· Is currently an award-winning historical crime novelist·
• David has worn a LOT of hats·
• How do you get started as a screenwriter?
• David talks about the paths into that field for television versus film.·
• Explanation of a brutal, competitive, cut-throat industry·
• How does film and TV compare to trad publishing? Much harsher!· Limited negotiation and power in script writing / IP work·
• Rights and creativity and anything created is signed over forever·
• How has the landscape of publishing changed in the past 30 years? Mostly good or mostly bad?·
• The advent of self publishing, the rise of electronic submissions, the accessibility of information·
• The financial side of script-writing: what does it make, what can you expect?·
• Wait…. You guys make HOW MUCH?! O.O·
• Good pay if writers can endure the crushing pressure and difficult environment·
• If you want to break into film, you need an agent, and probably also a lawyer, and a manager.·
• Tie in novels: how much they earn (enough to support you, not enough to retire or quit)·
• Novelisations of films: Tough gig, potentially good money·
• ALWAYS sign a contract first·
• The pitfalls of trying to learn screenwriting / doing your own book adaptations as an author·
• Scott’s burning question: why are some big budget shows SO awful? What went wrong?·
• And finally: Why David is happy to be back writing novels, why he enjoys it, and why he genuinely aspires to be a well-supported midlist writer.·
• “Either you're the skyrocket and then the hope is you can sustain that thereafter, or else you have to be the little engine that could and you just have to keep chugging away and putting out the books and raising the quality and raising awareness and getting out there and pimping your book and hustle, hustle, hustle.”

• Dr. Pray talks to us about the data she collected, the methods she used, and the research she produced in pursuit of this project, focusing primarily on the YA market
• End result: she developed an algorithm that could predict the success or failure of a given novel, with about 75% accuracy
• Her other big find: the minimum marketing viability threshold (ie, the point at which a book has a shot at selling well, which is defined in this case as selling within expectations relative to its advance)
• Books can be assigned a marketing viability score, and books which fall below that threshold have zero chance of success (that she has studied so far)
• Most well-marketed books still don’t succeed, but they have a significantly better chance of doing so, and when they do succeed, they sell extremely well
• We discuss various factors and angles of this data / research
• Dr. Pray lays out the eight factors correlated with book sale success
• We discuss outliers, or apparent outliers, and the “myth” of self made success that accompanies very good-selling books
• Sunyi’s theory on why high concept books might thrive better in this kind of environment, and also her metaphor for books as rocket launches (the concept of trying to get into orbit)
• Scott’s speculation on whether publishers run these algorithms themselves, and why or why not they might do so
• The surprising importance of Twitter, and the irrelevance of star ratings
• General chatter, and where you can find Dr. Pray to get in touch

• The founding of Illumicrate, and Daphne’s story
• A bit about book production, what they can or can’t do
• How does IC choose and acquire books for its crates?
• What IS a crate book – is there such a thing?
• Buliding a book community
• “Social media doesn’t help” but it does?
• Crate market in the usa – why so small?
• UK versus USA book culture
• Setting up an independent press, makign the leap from Illumicrate to Daphne Press
• The importance of editors, and why Daphne wanted to get that exactly right
• What exactly do trad editors DO? Scott breaks it down.
• Editors jobs are complex and very poorly paid
• Why Daphne doesn’t acquire world rights atm (it’s a good and noble reason!)
• What Daphne looks for in author submissions
• Daphne’s surprising tip for how you best catch her attention with your submission!
• Why Daphne Press doesn’t currently accept indie submissions (but hopes to in future!)
• Daphne’s love for indie books and authors generally

Today, we sit down with Julia Vee, who is an established indie author with a forthcoming trad title, Ebony Gate, via Tor 2023. Julia also happens to be an attorney in her dayjob and we can't wait to discuss those questions and many more with her (including touching on non-competes again.)

Other topics included: Julia and Ken's co-writing partnership / process, what good sales or bad sales look like for debuts in the first year, the Mark Lawrence formula for looking at sales via Goodreads ratings, and a few other things.

Today, Nick sits down to chat with us about navigating the world of film/tv options, and how it intersects with book publishing. In addition to talking about the money side, he also defines key terms, gives an overview of the process, and debunks the myth of authors 'needing' a social media platform.

NOTE: For the first time ever, we've deployed our 'alien warp' sound effect to censor a couple of names and companies that come up during the chat, as some details are under NDA. Please do not be too alarmed by the weird noise when you hear it!

Other topics include:

• How Scott hired a publicist (and other things he tried to give his book a boost)

• How ARCs create the "word of mouth" effect

• The importance of Goodreads, trade reviews, and influencers

• Sales data for the first 6 months, from both Scott and Sunyi's respective launches

• Pubs supporting you when things go wrong, as well as when things go right

• Why your editor relationship might be the most important one you have in publishing

• Scott's biggest piece of advice for authors on sub

Additional Notes:

• Blog guest posts (scalzi blog)

• Bookseller letter (example on Sunyi's site)

• Shelf Awareness (wiki article)

• Whitebox mailing (link)

• Su Blackwell (Sunyi's cover artist)

• The Orbit cover photo shoot video (youtube)

• As part of the above: what ARE non-compete clauses, what do they actually mean, are they enforceable, and can you negotiate with the publisher on yours?

• 05:26 Followup: are non-competes even legal / enforceable? (answer: no, not really)

QUESTION 227:19 - "Going with Orbit and Del Rey, despite the negatives, was worth it for expanding the readerbase. What things did these publishers do that worked, in terms of getting you out there, and what we who are early in our careers could likewise do to amplify our success or our current situations? And/or what kind of things did YOU do, on top of what your publishers were doing, that worked?QUESTION 3 47:59 - "Whether you have some sense for where the industry is going since you've been on both sides of it, and what you'd recommend for authors in terms of how you'd structure their career?"SHOW NOTES

• 13:30 - Authors feel intimidated in negotiations

• 14:00 - NDAs! are we allowed to talk about what's in our contracts? (Answer: yes)

• So much depends on the editor you get

• Publishers will heavily market two types of books: books that already make the money, or books that will make a splash. Otherwise it's on you to sink or swim.

• Sunyi's Press Kit gets a mention - feel free to use hers as a template, and build your own

• 33:31 - The Three Steps To Publishing Success (by Robin)

• what is a really good book? Let's define it (and why Twilight IS a good book, actually!)

• 34:49 - The ratio of readers, cheerleaders, and superfans⦁ Interacting with readers - benefits to the author

• The "authenticity stamp" of trad publishing

• 39:00 - would they do the trad circus again, if they could redo it?

• The difference between trad and indie succcess

• The future of publishing, and some positives/negatives

• Why Michael would actually recommend indie authors to try the trad / hybrid route for awhile, and what they can learn from that process

• What ChatGPT means for high-volume indie authors

• Quick pep talk for Scott!

• Why writing is truly the best job ever - and not quite like any other job in the world

Today, we are joined by Michael J Sullivan (a New York Times, USA Today, and Washington Post bestselling American writer) and Robin Sullivan, a powerhouse industry expert & fierce author advocate. In a detailed, wide-ranging interview, dream team Robin & Michael talk about the triumphs and trials of a very long career: from small press ventures to an unstoppable indie career and mammoth trade publishing battles, before eventually scaling the heights of hybrid success.

As ever, we aren't going to tell you what to do, or what is best; there is no such thing as a categorical answer in publishing. But hopefully we can help provide you enough facts to make informed decisions.Listen to our follow-up in episode 8, where we toss complex industry questions at Robin & Michael, in exchange for some very detailed answers.

SHOW NOTES:

• How Mike and Robin got started - with a book that was small press published, then self-published, then big 5 published

• The first trad deal Orbit Books offered them, and why they accepted it even though they were already successful

• The good and bad of working with a trad publisher, and why they found it a useful experience despite the many negatives

• Editors as project managers, and how much editing quality/quantity varies

• How publishers look at and regard self pub authors

• The difference in indie vs trad profits

• Why Robin and Michael took a second trad deal with Del Rey

• Why Robin and Mike went back to self publishing

• why they don't take money from authors - and their belief in helping, mentoring, and advocating freely

• how to define success for you, personally

• the importance of audio, and the commercial impact of a good narrator

• commercial versus artistic decisions

• what happens when a book underperforms, and what you can do about it

• navigating option clauses for future books

• how sales track-records can impact future contracts

• using leverage (when you have it!)

• What you can argue for in contracts, and how much you can push back

• things you CAN do to help promote your book

• questions from listeners! (A few).

Mike's specific advice:

• Success is specific and individual, and relative to your career

• Ask for audio rights reversion with 12 weeks of release

• Pick 1 or 2 things in your contract you want to fight for

• Research your audio narrator

• Know what you want/need upfront

Sunyi and Scott's added emphasis:

• your sales are not your fault!

Links:

• Michael Mammay's Twitter profile: https://twitter.com/MichaelMammay

• Michael Mammay's website & blog (with tons of articles about publishing and writing): https://www.michaelmammay.com/

We also deep dive into publishing contracts and clauses that debuting authors should be looking at (Richard used to be a lawyer in his dayjob). Other topics covered: marketing plans (or the lack of them), what editors mean when they talk about "having a vision" for your novel, the advantages/disadvantages of selling world rights, and the hideous invention that is Joint Accounting.

This week, we’re joined by Clay Harmon, author of Flames of Mira, to answer exactly those questions as we discuss his publishing journey. As usual, we go hard on the facts: details, money talk, gentle honesty, and bleak statistics.

Authors who are querying, on submission, or under offer from publishers may find this one particularly insightful.

Today we are joined by 3 guests: Jeremy, Claire, and Kerry, and we are grateful to all of them for their shared wisdom!