Hannah Boggs Nieman and her mother, Tamera Helms, join us to talk about three generations of women in one Church of God family. Tamera's mother, Betty Clemens, came out in the late 1980s, when there was little in the church to read and nobody safe to ask. Tamera came out years later, after working through the clobber passages herself in an seminary exegetical paper. Hannah grew up knowing her grandmother and her grandmother's wife, and came out as bisexual in her twenties — handed a baton, as she describes it, that her mother had to forge first. We talk about what their church said and didn't say from the pulpit, what the General Assembly resolved in 1979 and after, and what it costs a congregation to neither condemn nor affirm.

Intro music: Golden Sunrise (Instrumental) by Josh Woodward, used under CC-BY license.

Outro music: piano performed by Betty Clemens, recorded by Tamera Helms, October 2022, used by permission.

In this episode of CHOGAffirm Conversations, we talk with pastor, writer, performer, and lifelong Church of God son Rick Vale. Rick reflects on his deep roots in the Church of God, his journey toward understanding and accepting himself as a gay man, and the faith that sustained him through it.

The conversation also explores Rick’s approach to Scripture, the role of the Holy Spirit in interpretation, and his hope for a church able to welcome LGBTQ+ people into the fullness of Christian life and community. He closes with words for LGBTQ+ young people, those who have left the church behind, and Church of God leaders considering what inclusion requires.

CHOGAffirm advocates for LGBTQ+ affirmation and freedom of conscience within the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana). Learn more at chogaffirm.com.

If this conversation matters to you, a comment, like, or subscription helps others find it.

Intro/outro music is Golden Sunrise (Instrumental Version) by Josh Woodword, used under CC-BY license.

Sam Collins is third-generation Church of God. He graduated from Anderson University in 1973, earned his MDiv from Anderson School of Theology, and spent 34 years in national Church of God offices in roles that always involved writing and editing — including 17 years as a feature columnist for Vital Christianity. In 2023 he signed the CHOGAffirm statement. In January 2025, Indiana Ministries revoked his ministerial credentials.

When the investigative team asked Sam to plead guilty or not guilty, he refused to do either. In this conversation, he explains why. We talk about the grandmother who brought his family into the Church of God at a sawdust tent revival, the call to ministry he describes as a rustling of leaves rather than a voice, how his thinking on LGBTQ+ inclusion changed over decades, and what it means to call dissent a Church of God tradition — from D.S. Warner forward.

Sam also reads from his open letter to the National Committee on Credentialing, including the questions he's still waiting to hear answered: How can the church ensure this doesn't happen again? And what would it take to create a church where ministers can ask honest questions without fear of retribution?

CHOGAffirm advocates for LGBTQ+ affirmation and freedom of conscience within the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana). Learn more at chogaffirm.com.

If this conversation matters to you, a comment, like, or subscription helps others find it.

Intro/outro music is Golden Sunrise (Instrumental Version) by Josh Woodword, used under CC-BY license.